http://community.victoriaadvocate.com/home/Blog/maryann/6630 I've always been intriqued by  the battle between good and evil. When I was younger, the utilitarianism of collectivism appealed to me.  Yet I instinctively knew that Communism had much evil in it, and I wanted to know what made Communism tick. It seemed so seductive for so many brilliant men and women, such as Vladimir Lenin and Leon Trotsky. Surely, as brilliant as they were, they should have seen through the evils in the Communist system- such as denial of personal freedoms, particularly religious freedom and freedom of expression. I'm still curious about the great war between the forces of good and evil. and I'd like to put forth some ideas here for discussion. If anyone would like to comment or discuss, feel free to bring up your questions. Why is there evil in the world, and why do bad things happen to supposedly good people?  In Peter Kreeft's book, Handbook of Christian Apologetics, he covers these points in a very credible way, IMO.The following points are taken from this book. First, evil is not a being, thing, or entity. Things are not evil in themselves. For instance, a sword is not evil. Even the stroke of a sword that chops off your head is not evil in itself- in fact, unless it's a "good stroke" it will not chop your head off. Where is the evil? It is in the will, the choice, the intent, the movement of the soul, which puts a wrong order into the physical world of things and acts: the order between the sword and an innocent's neck rather than a murderer's neck or an innocent's bonds. Even the devil was good in his being. He is a good thing gone bad- in fact, a good thing gone very bad. If he had not had the greatest ontological goodness (goodness in his being) of a powerful mind and will, he could never have become as morally corrupt as he is. "Lillies that fester smell far worse than weeds." To be morally bad you must first be ontologically good. St. Augustine defines evil as disordered love, disordered will. It is a wrong relationship, a noncomformity between our will and God's will. God did not make evil, we did.  That is the obvious point of Genesis 1 and 3, the stories of God's good creation and humanity's evil fall. The origin of sin is human free will. Because of the sin of Adam and Eve, our souls were alienated from God, and thus our bodies as well. Because of the original sin, spiritual death (sin) and physical death and suffering go together because our souls and bodies go together. To the question of why bad things happen to good people, Socrates replies that they never do!  Christianity disagrees.  Its answer is that there are among us no "good people," that is, innocent people. We are involved in a physical world with our evil, which is like a stone tossed into the pond. The two great mysteries of solidarity, orginal sin (solidarity in sin) and vicarious atonement, (solidarity in salvation) mean that even the "innocents" among us, our small children, are involved in this double drama. (Kreeft, pp. 122-136) If God is all-loving and all-powerful, then it would be a contradiction to say that God created evil.  I think Kreeft's explanation of evil in the world answers many questions that we can have answered this side of eternity. Certainly, God allows evil, but that is far different from creating it.  I've always been intriqued by  the battle between good and evil. When I was younger, the utilitarianism of collectivism appealed to me.  Yet I instinctively knew that Communism had much evil in it, and I wanted to know what made Communism tick. It seemed so seductive for so many brilliant men and women, such as Vladimir Lenin and Leon Trotsky. Surely, as brilliant as they were, they should have seen through the evils in the Communist system- such as denial of personal freedoms, particularly religious freedom and freedom of expression. I'm still curious about the great war between the forces of good and evil. and I'd like to put forth some ideas here for discussion. If anyone would like to comment or discuss, feel free to bring up your questions. Why is there evil in the world, and why do bad things happen to supposedly good people?  In Peter Kreeft's book, Handbook of Christian Apologetics, he covers these points in a very credible way, IMO.The following points are taken from this book. First, evil is not a being, thing, or entity. Things are not evil in themselves. For instance, a sword is not evil. Even the stroke of a sword that chops off your head is not evil in itself- in fact, unless it's a "good stroke" it will not chop your head off. Where is the evil? It is in the will, the choice, the intent, the movement of the soul, which puts a wrong order into the physical world of things and acts: the order between the sword and an innocent's neck rather than a murderer's neck or an innocent's bonds. Even the devil was good in his being. He is a good thing gone bad- in fact, a good thing gone very bad. If he had not had the greatest ontological goodness (goodness in his being) of a powerful mind and will, he could never have become as morally corrupt as he is. "Lillies that fester smell far worse than weeds." To be morally bad you must first be ontologically good. St. Augustine defines evil as disordered love, disordered will. It is a wrong relationship, a noncomformity between our will and God's will. God did not make evil, we did.  That is the obvious point of Genesis 1 and 3, the stories of God's good creation and humanity's evil fall. The origin of sin is human free will. Because of the sin of Adam and Eve, our souls were alienated from God, and thus our bodies as well. Because of the original sin, spiritual death (sin) and physical death and suffering go together because our souls and bodies go together. To the question of why bad things happen to good people, Socrates replies that they never do!  Christianity disagrees.  Its answer is that there are among us no "good people," that is, innocent people. We are involved in a physical world with our evil, which is like a stone tossed into the pond. The two great mysteries of solidarity, orginal sin (solidarity in sin) and vicarious atonement, (solidarity in salvation) mean that even the "innocents" among us, our small children, are involved in this double drama. (Kreeft, pp. 122-136) If God is all-loving and all-powerful, then it would be a contradiction to say that God created evil.  I think Kreeft's explanation of evil in the world answers many questions that we can have answered this side of eternity. Certainly, God allows evil, but that is far different from creating it.  en-us If there is a God and he is omnipotent then he created everything including evil. If he is able to stop but allows to happen isn't that evil? http://community.victoriaadvocate.com/home/Blog/maryann/6630/#c_47083 http://community.victoriaadvocate.com/home/Blog/maryann/6630/#c_47083 If there is a God and he is omnipotent then he created everything including evil. If he is able to stop but allows to happen isn't that evil? Freethinker, God says that he is Love and Truth (from the Gospel of John). While that may not mean much to you, I think that it is reasonable to look on with logic and reason to see how Christians view God acting in the world. For love personified to create evil is contradictory. Since God is truth, he cannot deny himself, so saying you're Love and then doing evil is beyond the nature of love. I like your question: "If he is able to stop but allows to happen isn't that evil?" I think the key to your point has to do wih love and our free will. Just like in our own relationships, we can't MAKE someone love us, or it wouldn't be love at all. Forcing someone to love you leads to resentment, not real love.  God wants us to love him, as he loves us, but he will not MAKE us love him. I'm sure he COULD, but again, what kind of love is that? When we choose to not do good, evil can follow. God allows this evil to bring a greater good out of it. Sometimes, it's kind of like letting our children fail on their own, hoping that the get the lesson themselves. We should not do all of our kids' homework, and God's not always going to do ours. An example of an evil that God allowed but brought a greater good out of it: the Crucifixion.  What father wants to see his son tortured, mocked, then killed? Sure,God could have stopped it, but it was man perpetrating the evil, not God.  But God took that sad scene and from it brought about the Resurrection and the salvation of mankind. Also, while God is a God of mercy, he is also a God of justice. It would not be merciful to let the unrepentant Pol Pots and the Jeffrey Dahmers of the world go scott free for their actions. I don't think that justice is evil, if that divine justice is part of the consequences of one's actions. For God to allow someone to murder Jeffrey Dahmer in prison (which I think is what happened) is really abandoning him to his own way of life and his own will. Did God reach down and kill him? No. Some might see it as God smighting Dahmer in prison, others might see it as Dahmer's just "reward", or his karma. What's that old saying- you live by the sword you die by it? I'm not sure if that's even a solely Christian thought, but it is so true, and made me change my ways a few times. Now, I know that as a "freethinker" much of this is contrary to your way of thinking, or even distasteful perhaps. As a believer, to me it all makes sense and is logical- especially on top of the order of the universe, the beauty of the human mind and body, and on and on.     http://community.victoriaadvocate.com/home/Blog/maryann/6630/#c_47092 http://community.victoriaadvocate.com/home/Blog/maryann/6630/#c_47092 Freethinker, God says that he is Love and Truth (from the Gospel of John). While that may not mean much to you, I think that it is reasonable to look on with logic and reason to see how Christians view God acting in the world. For love personified to create evil is contradictory. Since God is truth, he cannot deny himself, so saying you're Love and then doing evil is beyond the nature of love. I like your question: "If he is able to stop but allows to happen isn't that evil?" I think the key to your point has to do wih love and our free will. Just like in our own relationships, we can't MAKE someone love us, or it wouldn't be love at all. Forcing someone to love you leads to resentment, not real love.  God wants us to love him, as he loves us, but he will not MAKE us love him. I'm sure he COULD, but again, what kind of love is that? When we choose to not do good, evil can follow. God allows this evil to bring a greater good out of it. Sometimes, it's kind of like letting our children fail on their own, hoping that the get the lesson themselves. We should not do all of our kids' homework, and God's not always going to do ours. An example of an evil that God allowed but brought a greater good out of it: the Crucifixion.  What father wants to see his son tortured, mocked, then killed? Sure,God could have stopped it, but it was man perpetrating the evil, not God.  But God took that sad scene and from it brought about the Resurrection and the salvation of mankind. Also, while God is a God of mercy, he is also a God of justice. It would not be merciful to let the unrepentant Pol Pots and the Jeffrey Dahmers of the world go scott free for their actions. I don't think that justice is evil, if that divine justice is part of the consequences of one's actions. For God to allow someone to murder Jeffrey Dahmer in prison (which I think is what happened) is really abandoning him to his own way of life and his own will. Did God reach down and kill him? No. Some might see it as God smighting Dahmer in prison, others might see it as Dahmer's just "reward", or his karma. What's that old saying- you live by the sword you die by it? I'm not sure if that's even a solely Christian thought, but it is so true, and made me change my ways a few times. Now, I know that as a "freethinker" much of this is contrary to your way of thinking, or even distasteful perhaps. As a believer, to me it all makes sense and is logical- especially on top of the order of the universe, the beauty of the human mind and body, and on and on.     Hello John, Thanks for your comments. I especially like the part about God suffering insults for us.That reminds me on how many of the great saints throughout the ages have meditated on the Passion of our Lord, and how we are called to do so also to become closer to Him. You say a "Good Person" loves everyone, end of story. Are you talking about saints, holy people- those who have achieved the highest level of sanctity? Is there any middle ground, say for someone on the path the Christ but who isn't quite there yet? What do you think about the "evil person" who does good?  You know, like the axe-murderer who might stop to help a grandma change her tire. I'm not challenging you, just wanting to pick your brain and learn more myself. http://community.victoriaadvocate.com/home/Blog/maryann/6630/#c_47141 http://community.victoriaadvocate.com/home/Blog/maryann/6630/#c_47141 Hello John, Thanks for your comments. I especially like the part about God suffering insults for us.That reminds me on how many of the great saints throughout the ages have meditated on the Passion of our Lord, and how we are called to do so also to become closer to Him. You say a "Good Person" loves everyone, end of story. Are you talking about saints, holy people- those who have achieved the highest level of sanctity? Is there any middle ground, say for someone on the path the Christ but who isn't quite there yet? What do you think about the "evil person" who does good?  You know, like the axe-murderer who might stop to help a grandma change her tire. I'm not challenging you, just wanting to pick your brain and learn more myself. Hello John, If I hear you clearly, I think you're saying that we should not judge people, and I agree with that. We should not judge rashly or quickly, nor should we judge one's ultimate salvation, as that certainly is up to God. However, we are called to judge people's actions with our God-given reason. I must tell my children to avoid strangers, and they use judgement. One might have to judge that someone addicted to cocaine was not a "good" spousal candidate. Also, not judging actions makes nonsense out of the Ten Commandments, not?  How can we make sense of the world if we can judge that someone who is a liar or an adulterer needs to be dealt with. On that note, some of the greatest sinners later in life became some of the greatest saints, namely Saint Augustine and Saint Paul. I would have had to make a judgement that my daughter should not date a man like the young Augustine, yet withold judging his final salvation and "worth" as only God can do that. But for he time being, I would have made the judgement call that Augustine is not a suitable person to associate with because of his admited carousing, drunkeness, and other sins of the flesh.  In the end, God would have worked in both of our lives, my daughter and I through our gift of reason, and in Augustine as he responded to God's grace. http://community.victoriaadvocate.com/home/Blog/maryann/6630/#c_47194 http://community.victoriaadvocate.com/home/Blog/maryann/6630/#c_47194 Hello John, If I hear you clearly, I think you're saying that we should not judge people, and I agree with that. We should not judge rashly or quickly, nor should we judge one's ultimate salvation, as that certainly is up to God. However, we are called to judge people's actions with our God-given reason. I must tell my children to avoid strangers, and they use judgement. One might have to judge that someone addicted to cocaine was not a "good" spousal candidate. Also, not judging actions makes nonsense out of the Ten Commandments, not?  How can we make sense of the world if we can judge that someone who is a liar or an adulterer needs to be dealt with. On that note, some of the greatest sinners later in life became some of the greatest saints, namely Saint Augustine and Saint Paul. I would have had to make a judgement that my daughter should not date a man like the young Augustine, yet withold judging his final salvation and "worth" as only God can do that. But for he time being, I would have made the judgement call that Augustine is not a suitable person to associate with because of his admited carousing, drunkeness, and other sins of the flesh.  In the end, God would have worked in both of our lives, my daughter and I through our gift of reason, and in Augustine as he responded to God's grace. thin Pig, I agree that we can't "summons" God, but we can reach him humbly in prayer.  Thanks for your comment. http://community.victoriaadvocate.com/home/Blog/maryann/6630/#c_47195 http://community.victoriaadvocate.com/home/Blog/maryann/6630/#c_47195 thin Pig, I agree that we can't "summons" God, but we can reach him humbly in prayer.  Thanks for your comment. Hello John, I believe that at the moment of death we will all be immediately judged, and our souls will either go to paradise (like Jesus told the Good Thief that "this day, you shall be with me in paradise), or we will go to purgatory (I's Catholic), or hell.  Then, on the last day, all of our bodies will arise from the ground, the sea, or whereever they lay, and they will be united with our souls for the Judgement day when all of our sins are laid bare in front of everyone. Then I think you know that story about the goats and the lambs. Was it the apple or our disobedience to God that brought sin? Surely, the apple in itself was good, as all of creation is good. Even the devil when he was made was good, but he went REALLY bad. I am enjoying this conversation with you, as it is making me think. God bless! http://community.victoriaadvocate.com/home/Blog/maryann/6630/#c_47263 http://community.victoriaadvocate.com/home/Blog/maryann/6630/#c_47263 Hello John, I believe that at the moment of death we will all be immediately judged, and our souls will either go to paradise (like Jesus told the Good Thief that "this day, you shall be with me in paradise), or we will go to purgatory (I's Catholic), or hell.  Then, on the last day, all of our bodies will arise from the ground, the sea, or whereever they lay, and they will be united with our souls for the Judgement day when all of our sins are laid bare in front of everyone. Then I think you know that story about the goats and the lambs. Was it the apple or our disobedience to God that brought sin? Surely, the apple in itself was good, as all of creation is good. Even the devil when he was made was good, but he went REALLY bad. I am enjoying this conversation with you, as it is making me think. God bless!