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Abortion could be the cause for the influx of so many immigrants
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Wed Nov 21, 2007 07:58:51 CST
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Comment From: Suzy  (Report this comment as a violation)

Mary Ann, the argument doesn't wash. Let me see...50 millions babies since 1972. If all of those babies grew up and had 2 kids of their own, that would be a possible 25 million couples having 2 kids each. So 50 million adults + 50 million more kids. Now those 50 million (25 million couples) kids would have 2 kids each and the first 50 million could still be alive. These numbers are only "IF" they had 2 kids each, to replace themselves. Do you see where I am going with this?
Now the article says that there are a estimated 12 to 20 million illegal immigrants here. Those 2 sets of numbers are no where near the same. If all of those babies had been born, would there be so many more people here that there wouldn't be jobs for millions of them?
The more people that are in this Country, the more cheap labor will be needed and desired by Corporate America. More housing will be needed, more food will be needed, more industry will be needed to sustain a larger population. More schools will be needed...more of everything would have been needed. Not only that, natural resources may very well have been depleted by now, the air quality may have been much worse or even unbreathable by now. Could we grow enough food to sustain that kind of runaway population explosion? Would there be enough energy to sustain that kind of population...her and overseas? The gang problems would be much worse...everything would be in dire straights is all of those babies would have been born.
Truthfully, smaller populations need less labor. America has enough people to do the jobs that immigrants do, they just cannot do those jobs at those wages and still be able to make a living. Why would anyone work at a job that they cannot make a living at? Would you work 10-12 hours a day and not have enough money to buy food, or own a home or car. Somehow I doubt it.
I know you want to use every means possible to prove that abortion is wrong and is the cause of all our ills, but you need to stop concentration on one aspect of it and look at the entire picture. There is no way that America would be better off if abortion had not been legalized. There is no way that it would have made a difference in the amount of immigrants coming into this Country. If anything, more would be coming in. Corporate greed is still the single most obvious reason why so many come here "and" find the jobs.
Currant unemployment statistics are said to be low, but those numbers are deceptive. Those figures only count the people who actually applied for unemployment benefits. It doesn't count the true number of unemployed. There are many reason why some unemployed persons aren't counted.. Maybe their benefits have run out and they are no longer able to apply. Those people are still unemployed, but it doesn't show up in the statistics. There are people who live on the streets and don't have a address. You must have a address to apply for aid. Then there are people who choose to go on public assistance instead of getting a job, because at least they can get insurance and they have checks coming in every month and food stamps. There are people who cannot find anything more than part-time work. They cannot live on those wages, so family helps them out, or they supplement their wages in other ways...legal or illegal. They cannot be counted in the unemployment statistics either, since they have a job.

Comment From: maryann  (Report this comment as a violation)

Hello Jo,

You state, "Now, people are trying to convince others that abortion causes more than that, and I know what you are trying to say about having had those 50 million kids, or so, then we wouldn't have as big a problem with immigrants. I just don't think it would've made that much of an impact one way or another."

For every cause there is an effect.

I don't know how you can say that killing 50 million children of various gestational ages "wouldn't have much of an impact one way or another"!

Killing 50 million of our own offspring must have many effects, and one of them, in my opinion and from the point of view of the English doctors for their own 6 million, is that we are now dependent on migrant workers more than ever before.

We are SO dependent that we have 12-20 million undocumented workers here in America, and the unemployment figures do no show a vast displacement. In other words, by killing our babies, we've made ample room to absorb new people into our country.

You said, "I don't know too many teens who do construction work, oilfield work--lots of immigrants in that field, and carpentry, etc....these are the jobs they come over here for--not to babysit and do little odd jobs here and there, not too many. "

Our own youth don't always babysit and cut yards either. I'm sure the high school boy that I taught 10 years ago who was undocumented but HIGHLY talented has moved on to better thing than washing dishes at the local cafe, where he worked with his Texas classmates.

BTW, look at some construction companies, and you'll see what I'm talking about. He might be one of the foremen.

In ten more years, I think it will become more apparent that we are killing our own, only to have them replaced by foreigners. England, Russia, and Japan are owning up to the problem now, so much so that Russia and Japan ARE paying women to have babies- but it's not working.

I don't think it's a bad thing that we have others who come here. I do think it's a bad thing that 1 out of 4 of our children are killed and THAT has created the vacuum.

Have a great Thanksgiving, Jo. I'm going to take a break until next week.



Comment From: Riverboat  (Report this comment as a violation)

Mike, which pro-life leader was this who was "forced" to admit that abolishing Roe v Wade is just a first step in abolishing abortion? Abortion had been outlawed in most states when Roe v Wade was promulgated.

To the best of my knowledge - and I've been involved in pro-life activities for over 25 years - I've NEVER heard ANYONE suggest women be punished for procuring an abortion. It has long been understood that women are exploited by unscrupulous abortionists, and in order to end it, their testimony is vital. Comment From: jo  (Report this comment as a violation)

okay, well back to the topic at hand--the "influx". I really think this is just another of many attempts to deter people from supporting the right to choose, and I don't think that's the way to go about it. People should be against abortion because of one simple fact: it kills.

Now, people are trying to convince others that abortion causes more than that, and I know what you are trying to say about having had those 50 million kids, or so, then we wouldn't have as big a problem with immigrants. I just don't think it would've made that much of an impact one way or another. There are many immigrants, legal or not, who come over here and don't work, they just come over here to live the "American Dream" which is sadly becoming something completely different than what that dream was years ago, and I'm not going to get back into discussing those who sit on welfare and choose not to work--the "dream" seems to be to sit and wait for hand-outs.

So, I guess in a way, I'm not so "pro choice" after all. I'm not saying we should force people to work, I'm saying that if they are able, then start taking welfare away. I hate it when people sit around and have kid after kid and expect me and you to pay for these kids. They are NOT heroes in my book, just because they brought life into the world. But again, this is just another example of why I don't believe doing away with abortion is going solve or even help solve this problem of not having enough Americans to fill the jobs. There are, they just don't want to because it's too easy to get that check every month.

And I certainly hope you don't think I have anything against stay at home moms (and dads) and people who choose to have big families. I admire them, and I tried to stay at home with my two when they were younger, and I just didn't have the patience. I don't work just for the money, though keeping a roof over our heads, food on the table, and clothes and shoes on backs and feet is really my main goal behind it. And nothing is fancy--our house, clothes--my husband just doesn't make enough to pull all that "weight" on his own, and I want to help, so that we live comfortably, not stressed out, up to our eyeballs with bills. But back to stay at homers, I truly believe that it is the equivalent of 2 fulltime jobs. Dr. Phil even verified that, and you know if he says something, then it's GOT to be true!lol--but seriously, the "baby factory" comment was mostly talking about women who have no choice, and that's what I'm all about as far as to reproduce or not, either way, I strongly believe people should only have kids because they want them, not because OTHER people want them to have them. It IS demeaning.

It's not how many kids one has, it's WHY they have them. Anyway, people should focus on doing away with abortion to eliminate the elimination of children. And that's why I had to explain that, because abortion may no longer be legal, people will be safer--that's the point--and then it'll be an argument of people not having enough kids, and people will find a way to "fix" that too, by taking away other rights. Domino effect, I guess. But all in all, making abortion illegal may create a handful of Americans to fill those jobs, but not enough to keep the immigrants out.

I don't know too many teens who do construction work, oilfield work--lots of immigrants in that field, and carpentry, etc....these are the jobs they come over here for--not to babysit and do little odd jobs here and there, not too many. I really think the problem is the stupid companies, large and small, who choose to hire them without doing background checks and requiring proper documentation, and pay them next to nothing, with no benefits, etc...It saves companies lots of dough, and it's NOT because the companies are forced to hire them--they CHOOSE to do it for their own benefit. Comment From: maryann  (Report this comment as a violation)

Hello Jo,

I asked you to clarify your "baby factory" remark, and you did to some extent.

I was hoping that the women's movement hadn't brought us to the point of one class of women labeling another class of women "baby factories." I don't think we have to start a war of words between women who work and have families and those who stay at home, or a war between those women who want a number of children and those who prefer to not have a number of children.

You stated, "... I never hear anything good about women (referring to the two nitwits who wrote the letters to the editors), other than that if we're not mothers, stay at home moms, and such, then we are 'sinners.'"


Perhaps you're reading and listening to people different than I, but I hear plenty of success stories of women both without and with a number of children leading happy and successful lives.

The letter's main idea was the link between abortion and immigration. You seem to want to talk about abortion in general and your own experience with women's rights and not wanting to have more than two children. That's fine. But somehow, the term "baby factory" as linked to the original topic still seems demeaning to me.

If some see immigrant women with a number of children, as my ancestors were, I hope that we can not immediately label them "baby factories," as we don't really know their circumstances.

Not too many would jump to call Rose Kennedy, J.F.K.'s mother, a baby factory, yet some would call a migrant worker mom one, yet I bet she loves her children immensely.

You've made it perfectly clear that women who don't WANT to have children are within their rights. I say bully for you! No one is calling you a sinner, and I'm glad that you don't think that women who DO want children are "baby factories."

As for the original topic, if you have anything more to say about that, I'd be happy to discuss it. Comment From: jo  (Report this comment as a violation)

at the end I meant to say that some people "knock" birth contol Comment From: jo  (Report this comment as a violation)

Mary Ann, don't put words in my mouth, LOL! I never implied that women over here should stop having kids, and let the immigrants do it for us! I never said that, nor as a mother of two believe that nonsense. I am saying that women should only have kids if they WANT them, not because someone else, whether their husbands or even other women tell them to, because it's their "job". I was only stating that just because we have a uterus doesn't mean we have to be in a constant state of pregnancy--unless we WANT to.

And I can assure you that like I said, today we talk about the aborted kids--eventually, we'll be fighting over the non-conceived children, because abortion is no longer legal, and people might be careful for once. And that is what we should hope for--responsibility. And just because a woman is married, that doesn't mean she has to have lots and lots of kids, again, unless that's what SHE wants. This is MY body, and no one is going to tell me that two isn't enough (believe it or not, someone DID) and that I'm not fulfilling my "obligation" as a woman--we are not baby factories.

Okay, it's like this. I'm a married mother of two, and do NOT want anymore kids. Say my husband pressured me or good ol' mom-in-law because she wants more grandbabies. Are you saying that we should just give in and do it, even if we feel strongly about not wanting another child? To just let our husbands and their moms (just an example) use me to have what THEY want? Then I would certainly start feeling like a "baby factory". Just pop 'em out whether I want to or not, and people out there DO have that attitude--that we as women are obligated to have as many kids as someone ELSE thinks we should have. I don't want anymore kids, and I'm not a bad person for that--I just have other things, including the two I already have of course, going for me, and I refuse to let others use my body as a meat locker for the kids THEY WANT. That would make me a "baby factory" or whatever term you want to use.

I never said women should just stop having kids, they should stop getting pregnant if they don't want them. Then they wouldn't have to have an abortion. And on that note, not all unwanted pregnancies are terminated. Many people have kids and abuse and mistreat them, because they didn't want them in the first place, and to me, that's awful. I can't imagine living my life not being wanted by my parents. I was only implying that if a women does not want a kid, then she needs to either use bc or avoid sex, and since some people can't control their hormones, or so they say, then they should at least try to keep from getting pregnant.

Our country also has the highest incidence of STD's, saw that on the news a couple weeks ago, and I believe it. It's sad that there are so many women out there who put themselves at risk not only with unwanted pregnancy, but with diseases as well. It's because some attitudes or "beliefs" imply that women can do nothing more than get pregnant and make men happy, and that's what ticks me off. We have BRAINS! I wish some of those women would USE THEM! And that goes for some of the married women who let their husbands keep them "in their places". A woman should do what she feels is right for her (whether to have more kids or have them at all) and if that means having 6 kids and being a homemaker, then I say do it! But only if that's what SHE WANTS! That's what I'm saying. Don't put words in my mouth just because I speak the truth. There are women out there who do not want kids, and it's no one else's business or place to judge her. Abortion is a completely different story, but as I've said over and over, I've already heard people "knocking" the use of that too. Comment From: maryann  (Report this comment as a violation)

Yes, Mike, it is good new about the skin cells and ESCR.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours as well!

Civil? As in Civil War??? Just kidding! But thanks for the friendly reminder.

P.S. the front just blew through here, and it's on the way to V.town! Comment From: Mike  (Report this comment as a violation)

Hello Mary Ann
How about that, we now can reprogram ordinary cells. This breakthrough means that we can conduct embryonic-type stem cell research without destroying human life.

So we can almost take this argument off the table.

I know you will never give up your worthy cause and I respect that. Matthews is lucky he did not have to confront you. Always keep it civil.

I hope you and your wonderful family have a great Thanksgiving.
Until Monday.
Comment From: maryann  (Report this comment as a violation)

Well, in my opinion, he got the wrong pro-life leader to speak with if he had to grill him to admit things.

Roe v. Wade might be the "law of the land," but it is an unjust law, as some laws have been before which were overturned by the Supreme Court.

Roe v. Wade stated that the beginning of life was not precisely known. 30+ years down the road, we can stop pretending not to know when a new life starts. DNA and any science book on embryology tells us that life begins at fertilization.

It's getting society to recognize the humanity of the life which begins then.


Comment From: Mike  (Report this comment as a violation)

First a little background, Chris Matthews does not like people that skirt the issue, he grill them. Chris first got the man to admit the goal was overturning Roe v Wade and it involves more than turning the issue back over to the states because right now it is an amendment in our constitution and not that many want Roe v Wade overturned.

Second point, he got the leader to admit that making it a state issue would not stop abortion but perhaps criminalizing abortion would. The leader flinched at that, and then he reluctantly agreed that doctors would have to be jailed in order to remove him from the equation. The leader did not give Chris an answer for the consequences of an unsafe abortion.

I think the video and transcript of that show is still on the MSNBC website. Perhaps the Pro-Life representative was not a good speaker, but he looked mighty uncomfortable when pressed for more answers.

Fact is ,the procedure is not illegal now ,and we do not know what the penalities because Roe v Wade is the law of the land.
Comment From: maryann  (Report this comment as a violation)

Mike, why did Matthews have to "force" a pro-life leader to say this? OF COURSE abortionists will be jailed for doing illegal abortions. What's so mystifying about jailing a doctor that kills a child in the womb?

Scott Peterson sits in jail now for doing it, and few other men too. True, our laws are psychotic, as they protect some babies like Connor Peterson, and say others can be ripped apart limb from limb and pieced together in a pan.


Comment From: maryann  (Report this comment as a violation)

Jo, don't panic. No one is trying to take your birth control away from you. If abortion is made illegal in this country, and I believe it will be thrown back to the states at least, you and I will probably be old enough where we won't need birth control anyway.

As far as the rights of women, I'm all for that. College educations, voting records, and independence are certainly worth fighting for. But as far as "reproductive rights" code words for "abortion" primarily, I think we've gone too far.

When we kill our children in the womb, we deny those little girls their right to life. Shouldn't our rights stop where someone else's begin? Legally we have a problem, but morally more and more people see the rights of children- like with the passage of the Lacy Peterson law.

Anyway, you brought up "baby factories." Is not having an abortion the only qualification for being a baby factory? That's a bit coarse and derogatory. I would call most women who haven't had an abortion but brought their babies to term, "moms."

To be a "baby factory," as you put it, would call for more determining factors, such as but not limited to:

1) promiscuity
2) carelessness
3) irresponsibility

Simply not having an abortion doesn't make a woman a baby factory.

And...another thought on that note. I certainly don't view children as economic units, though when talking about immigration we can get into the economy.

But are you implying that our native born women shouldn't be bothered with having children even if they want them because the "foreign" baby factories can provide us with enough nannies, yardmen, dishwashers, egg pickers, car washers, and you get the picture? Women who want no children fine, but don’t demean any MOM.

Do you think these people who support society fall from the sky?

Please don't demean women who have children who grow up to support society in WHATEVER way by implying that they are simply "baby factories." These women very often raise loving children who turn out to be our doctors, janitors, barbers, and journalists.

To imply that raising children is somehow demeaning and for the lower classes while the native-born women get real educated and are SERVED is elitist, to say the least. Are native-born women too good to waste their time raising children???

Perhaps this is not your implication, but somehow you forgot that one of the dignities and privileges of being a woman, along with an education, voting, and being president- is being a mom.

My point again: killing 50 million of our own children has in part made us dependent on foreign workers.

Comment From: Mike  (Report this comment as a violation)

Chris Matthews had to force a Pro-Life leader to admit that abolishing Roe v Wade is just a first step in abolishing abortion. Jailing the doctors would be the next step because he knows where life begins. The leader backed off punishing the women because he knows that would never happen, women would revolt. If he would have said that on national television, women would answer at the ballot box in droves.

IMO ,if men could get pregnant, this would not even be an issue. They would have an abortion clinic on every corner.
Comment From: jo  (Report this comment as a violation)

Well, a ways off or not, I'll be damned if someone denies me the right to use bc or any other means of avoiding pregnancy. Today we argue about kids that "could've and would've been" had it not been for abortion. Tomorrow, we will be arguing about the "could've, would've been kids" had it not been for that darn bc or tubal, or vasectomy, or whatever. And if they limit or deny people even 200 years from now of their reproductive rights, then sadly we will no longer be able to call this a "free country" and I'm certainly not going to sit around and let THAT happen.

I know that if abortion is completely illegal, then people, like I said hopefully, will be much more careful, and someone's not going to like that EITHER, therefore, think they have the "right" to speak out for those "kids" that they think should be conceived, and they will argue, fuss, fight and riot until they get their little ways. Rest assured, that if that happened in my lifetime, my husband, along with many others, will be really really crabby men, and women too, because they won't be gettin' any! I mean, what? Are we going to be FORCED to have sex? I thought having a baby was supposed to be out of love? And wanted.

Anyway, I actually DO care about women in the future--I'm sure all of those who were denied the right to vote back in the "good ol' days" cared and wanted things to change for US! Thank God things did, but it seems some don't like women having any rights and it sounds like it's always about men and children, and I never hear anything good about women (referring to the two nitwits who wrote the letters to the editors), other than that if we're not mothers, stay at home moms, and such, then we are "sinners". There's more to life than having babies, and some don't want any at all. That's not a flaw, it's a right, and eventually THAT right will be taken away.

I do care about my daughter, her possible daughter, and so on. I just think there are other factors to blame than abortion, concerning filling the employment "holes". And with that, I don't think that being a productive member of society has to mean being a "reproductive" member of society, but safer sex will mean fewer unwanted pregnancies and I guarantee someone will have a problem with that, and that makes no sense to me at all. Comment From: maryann  (Report this comment as a violation)

Jo, if abortion becomes illegal, some might call for another look at birth control. But that's a bit of a way off, and in the meantime, babies are dieing in the womb because many of us (myself included) sit on our hands.

The English doctors nor I am implying that women are just baby factories. I consider myself part of the economy as I am an educator. While I'm not working for pay right now, I do teach on a volunteer basis.

As abortion has become the back up method for some on birth control, we end up killing the natural consequence of the sexual act. Yet we try to carry on economically as if it's not happening.

In Japan they don't see themselves as "baby-makers" either, but because Japan ranks third on the current list for reported abortions and they women have an average of one child, they also have to depend on migrant workers for the "dirty jobs." Then the complain that the workers don't want to go back home to Indonesia, and they are changing their culture.


The truth is that when we kill of 50 million of our progeny, it's going to have an effect economically, spiritually, and emotionally to start with. I see the link economically with the illegal immigration.

Millions of these immigrants have come to take jobs that aren't being taken in part because dead people can't work.

No problem, as we have people coming in who DO want to work.
Comment From: jo  (Report this comment as a violation)

Abortion is the literal killing of children. Yes, you heard it from a "pro choicer"--but I promote bc and/or abstinence more than anything. I know that that is also a problem with "pro lifers". If you are against abortion, you should encourage women (and men) to be more careful and not get pregnant at all. But one thing leads to another, in that if abortion become illegal, then people will have a problem with bc, sterilization, and so on. They already DO. My problem is that one thing (doing away with abortion) is never enough. That's why I call them "pro creators" vs. "pro lifers"--there's a difference.

First, women are accused of being selfish, some are "baby killers"--now, it sounds like those who just don't get pregnant at all are responsible for our illegal immigration problems. Because I promise (and hope) that if abortion is one day illegal, more people will be more responsible and avoid pregnancy altogether. Isn't that the whole POINT? People will complain that "too many people are being just way to careful now--let's get rid of that darn birth control and take away those rights to get their tubes tied!" Maybe not in my lifetime, but one thing is never good enough!

Say we do away with abortion and people are more careful. Not all, but hopefully most. That means that we will STILL be missing the estimated "millions" because they simply won't be conceived in the first place. Then what?

I understand why abortion bothers so many people, but it really bothers me that some imply that women are just baby factories destined to be prisoners in their own homes (and Labor & Delivery wards) having babies and catering to their men. The way I see it, using one's brains are far more important than using your reproductive organs. People have their "southern" organs removed all the time, and they usually do just fine. Now, how 'bout them BRAINS? Although, sometimes I wonder about some people, but anyway, I think brain power is much more important than "vagina" and "uterus" power! LOL! Seriously, I don't want my daughter to think that all she's good for is laying on her back for most of her life with her legs in the air. I want her to know that she is smart and can do anything she wants (long as it's legal!) and she is not obligated to have babies to make sure there are enough workers out there--there are plenty, but many just don't WANT TO. That's the real problem.

But like I was saying, if we do away with one thing, it won't be enough, and this is a good example. We're not exactly in short supply of teenagers, either. Mary Ann brought up a good point about those who are too good to work, or do the dirty jobs. And when I was in high school, I was involved with way too many activities, and didn't work at all, even though I did want to. But my parents, as wonderful as they were and still are, pushed to get an education and told me to worry about working after I graduated. There are all kinds of reasons why there are so many job openings, but there are more than enough people out there who can do these jobs, they just don't WANT to. Comment From: maryann  (Report this comment as a violation)

Hello Allfiredup,

I have mixed feelings about illegal immigration. As someone said, when we talk about "illegal" immigration, we're talking about humans with families.

I realize they are here illegally. My point is that if we hadn't killed so many of our own children, then the need for foreign workers would be less.

The vacuum in part created a need for workers, and nature is filling it.

Russia, which has the greatest REPORTED abortion record in the world has to import workers as well. But their workers don't care to stick around, at least in the Vladivostock area where I have contact with some people who say they can get nothing done contruction-wise without the Chinese workers who come to work.

Comment From: maryann  (Report this comment as a violation)

Mike, I don't expect people to prove or disprove one way or the other on this topic, mainly to keep it under consideration as a possibility.

I tried to make that clear in the letter. I also concurred with the English doctors that abortion was PART of the need for foreign workers.

You know, you're pretty good with economic and political topics, and I believe this is a case of CAUSE/EFFECT and therefore SUPPY/DEMAND. A vacuum of workers creates a demand for them. So we get them.

You talk about outsourcing.... I think a pool of semi-trained youthful workers looking for entry level jobs instead of hitting the big-time right out of college could have helped that problem.

Our companies sent jobs oversees to get the cheap labor. I think we eliminated in the womb a lot of our cheap labor. I'm not saying they would always have worked the low-paying jobs for ever.

I also think there are effects that are spiritual, emotional, and familial, but I won't go there, nor will I to visit the population control topic, either, as we've been there too.

Comment From: allfiredup  (Report this comment as a violation)

Mary Ann,

You should be against illegal immigration. Comment From: Mike  (Report this comment as a violation)

Well maryann I cannot disprove your hypothetical but illegal immigration and abortion are very important issues and tying the two together, only makes solving them a lot more difficult. Why, because as you mentioned cause and effect.

The illegal immigration issue is not just about people, but it involves security, the economy, and enforcing our laws ,so we know abortion will not be brought up when the issue of comprehension reform comes up.

What is the message of the English Guide of Catholic Doctors? Don’t abort to solve the illegal immigration problem. 50 million more people and our manufacturing jobs went overseas; can you imagine what the unemployment rate would be? I think one way of measuring unemployment is the amount of unemployment checks distributed. I don’t think illegal workers collect them.

BTW maryann don't go there ,I am not trying to tie the 50 million to the unemployment rate. I am not advocating population control.
Comment From: maryann  (Report this comment as a violation)

Mike, I admit there are a lot of variables, BUT I think abortion is one of them.

You can't just kill 50 million children (cause) and have no EFFECT.

As far as American employers not wanting American workers, sure, I buy that. They want to pay the bottom dollar, and the immigrants have to do that.

What about having a teenager working for bottom dollar.

Another variable: some- NOT ALL, of the American youth we do have are "too good" to do the dirty jobs out there today. So foreign workers are needed for that reason as well. See how open my mind is, Mike? :-} I admit there are other variables in this scenario. Comment From: maryann  (Report this comment as a violation)

Okay, Robert, then explain why we have 20 million illegal immigrants here, yet the unemployment figures are so rosy? Comment From: maryann  (Report this comment as a violation)

Hello Jo,

I agree that with abortion being legal or not, we will still have immigrants here.

But what's wrong with our YOUTH doing the entry level jobs? What's wrong with them doing the "dirty" jobs? Well, to a great extent, they don't HAVE to do them because illegals are hired to do the work and to do it CHEAP, as Mike said.

Who used to do the nanny jobs, the yardwork, the washing of cars? Our youth... Increasingly, we see these jobs doled out to people who are paid cash because they don't have papers.

How many people running for office or IN office have had to bow out or make BIG excuses, because they had undocumented nannies or yard people recently? I've heard about that a lot recently.



Comment From: roberttx  (Report this comment as a violation)

I thought this was the dumbest thought ever when I heard the vile Tom Delay spew the same idea about a year ago. Comment From: Mike  (Report this comment as a violation)

First I am not mocking you, but merely saying this hypothetical was already introduced and it fell on deaf ears.
Illegal immigration started getting out of hand about ten years ago, when family farms were replaced with larger farm cooperation’s. These were more productive by employing immigrants only. I am only writing about this period.
I have said several times when the last Immigration Bill that failed called for about 140,000 more workers, the 12/20 million were counted unofficially. So. I agree those that want to work are employed.

You are missing my point, several employers DO NOT want American workers in the fields I have mentioned.

I read where the mining companies were thinking of importing Ukrainians because bringing their mines up to standards would be too expensive.

Bottom line, IMO too many variables to simply say without abortion we would not have an illegal immigration problem.
Comment From: jo  (Report this comment as a violation)

rnb777,

You have some good points, but let's just say, for argument's sake, that the what-could've-been kids weren't aborted and many were geniuses and prospective leaders. Okay, then they certainly wouldn't be pushing mops and working in, as Mike put it, the "sunny fields of California". They'd more than likely have college degrees, unless they were to let a brilliant mind go to waste, as some do, and would probably have some pretty high profile jobs getting paid a nice sum.

So, we'd STILL have those other "job openings". No one, including myself, bring children into the world in hopes of them becoming janitors-not knocking janitors-I'm just being honest. We want our kids to grow up and be docs, lawyers, engineers, etc...So who's going to do the dirty jobs? We're still going to have immigrants coming over here, regardless of abortion issues, to do them. And I've got to say it again, what about all the Americans who ARE able to work, but they're just not willing to give up that welfare check? They're having lots of kids, some of them. That's how some stay on welfare. They have kids and use them as little mealtickets. How's THAT right? Let's make them get up and work, and then go from there. Comment From: maryann  (Report this comment as a violation)

Hello RNB,

I think if we did have a percentage of the 50 million children who have been aborted, it is logical to say that jobs would not have been available, and fewer illegal immigrants would be here.

Jobs, and the better way of life they provide, are a huge part of what brings them here to begin with. I think if there were no jobs, then they might not come here just to sit around. A living as to be made for the families.

 I am arguing AGAINST abortion, not AGAINST illegal or legal immigraton.

I think that it is part of the irony that Americans have taken away the future of 1/4 of their offspring (at least every 4th child is aborted) AND that good has been brought out of this evil- others are able to better their lives.

Also, the English doctors said that the average allowance for geniuses would have been killed. One might add that the average amount of deadbeats, murderers, etc. would have been killed. But I don't think we should target children in the womb just because they have a "higher risk" to be a jailbird.

BTW, our prisons are full now WITH legal abortion. Some sadly argue that abortion keeps the prison population down. I don't see where that has occurred, especially in Texas.

Comment From: rnb777  (Report this comment as a violation)

What if abortion was not legal? Is it safe to assume that people in other countries would not want to come here because we have "enough of a population"? Of course not! Could the number of miscarriages and crib deaths also influence the number of immigrants? No, way! Do they come here because maybe they already have other family members here? Are they seeking better lives for themselves and their children? Did they get married to an American citizen who was stationed over seas? Might be a little more likely than the number of abortions. How can you give credit to someone who is not alive? How likely is it that these babies who were aborted would grow up to be geniuses and prospective leaders? Comment From: ShureleeUJest  (Report this comment as a violation)

I just knew it was Bush and the neo-cons' fault all along! Comment From: maryann  (Report this comment as a violation)

Hello Mike,You make a several comments, and I'll respond to a few.

This new system doesn't let us see the previous posts, so I have to remember what you posted.

 I'm prepared to have this idea mocked... not a new situation to anyone who speaks out for unborn children.

I disagree with your statement about having the aborted children working in the sunny fields California. Who USED to do it? Migrant families, poorer people, and YOUNG people.An example closer to home.

We have chicken houses around here in my neck of the woods. When I taught school 18 years ago, I had high school students who worked in those chicken houses after school and on weekends. My husband did this too when he was a teenager.

When I left school 3 years ago, I had students who were undocumented (no social security numbers) whose parents were working in chicken houses. Maybe the parents had papers, but I know for a fact that the teenage children who came years after the parent arrived were not documented.

When the oldest boy, who won medals in Austin for a state sports event, applied for scholarships, he couldn't get them because the didn't have his "number." We tried help him get his number, but he said it tooks years. By that time he would be in his 20s.

BTW, these kids I'm talking of were well behaved, worked hard in my classes, and pretty much appreciated the opportunities they were given.

Can I prove that all of our illegal and legal immigrants are taking the place of our youngsters that have been aborted? NO.

But I can propose what the English doctors have- that we've killed so many of our own offspring, that we are dependent on foreign workers.Look around Mike. We have up to 20 million illegals here.

HMMMM.... have they displaced anyone? Unemployment stats. don't show that they're crowding out too many.

Why not?

They have filled jobs that would have been taken by those we've killed off. If we hadn't killed off so many of our own kids, jobs would not be so plentiful for these foreign workers.

I think there is a huge irony in this. We kill our children, and we get others to take their place.

Comment From: Mike  (Report this comment as a violation)

Hello maryann
This hypothetical was mocked when illegal immigration zealots Tom Delay and Tom Tancredo introduced it several months ago. I heard another say if not for abortion we would have more soldiers enlisting. That went over as well as the illegal immigration hypothetical.
About ten years ago the meat packing industry left the area of Chicago and relocated in the rural areas of Kansas where they were not under the watchful eyes of the EPA, journalist, and litigation lawyers. The CEO’s of these meat packing plants made a conscience decision to get rid of American workers so they could pay low wages ,bypass the EPA and get tax abatements from the smaller towns because they needed the industry.
Take a trip to New Orleans where the citizens need the jobs but contractors are not hiring them. Abortion and the bottom line, not even close.
Your hypothetical assumes that the aborted babies would work in the sunny fields of California or in these packing houses. I have lived in south Texas all my life and I have not found this to be the case.
Abortion is trending down but the reproduction rate of Americans remains low.
I doubt very seriously mothers to be and their doctors think about the economy when they make that serious and private decision to abort.
Several Right to Lifers stand tall for the rights for the unborn unless that child belongs to an undocumented immigrant. Then that baby must go ,Constitution and principal out the window.

Comment From: jo  (Report this comment as a violation)

Well, personally, I don't think the illegals know or care how many abortions have occured over here, and they will continue to keep coming over here to work. They also get paid less, and that, primarily, is why people rely on them. I don't like that people are using abortion as means of birth control, I've known girls (in their tweens) who've had three or four. I don't think abortion should be illegal, but the laws should be a little more strict.

  I am 30 years old, have two kids (that I wanted) and since the last one, my husband and I have been using birth control, and even used it in between kids, and before kids, and it worked. BC works if you and your partner BOTH take the initiative. Instead of illegalizing abortion, we should promote abstinence (the best cure for unwanted pregos) and using bc, and by that I mean using it properly. I just hate seeing kids thrown in trash cans and set on fire and such, and it will happen more often if abortion is no longer available.

 The way I see it, I'm not going to take care of someone's kid, especially if they didn't want it in the first place. I had my two kids. And on that note, there are already so many kids that don't have homes, I'm not going to help contribute to more. I've never been bounced from one foster home to another, I've never been abused, and Mom and Dad never tried to kill me. I think that's far worse than anything you can do to a child-bring them into the world, and THEN kill them.Besides, doing away with abortion is right up those chauvinists' alleys. They hate that women have any rights at all. It's a power-seeking attempt to take reproductive rights away. Next, it'll be a debate on whether we should keep bc on the shelves and pills and such available from doctors. Then people will argue that there aren't enough workers, other than immigrants, so let's just take a woman's right to get her tubes tied. I had children because I wanted a family-small-but I love them and we are happy. I didn't bring them here so that they can "breed" later on just to make sure we have workers.

What about all the lazy people sitting around getting checks from the good ol' gov't? Why can't we make those moochers get off their butts and go to work? Why can't we come down harder on THEM? There are lots and lots of flaws other than abortion, and I don't think abortion is why we are depending on immigrants, legal or not. Even if that were the case, we will always have immigrants, many illegals, because they simply want a better life. Sounds like we're gonna have an awful lot of people. Other than Alaska, I don't think we're hurting for MORE people--we're hurting for people who WANT to work.